What's everyone doing? Question for Marc & the staff

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roni3d1
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13 Mar 12 05:06:44 pm
Hey,
I check the forum here at least once a day and I never seem to see much feedback on how everyone is doing.

I know that the majority of the daily posts are from newcomers (like myself) who are just getting started in their research but where are the 'old timers'?
Not just for answering questions but to just drop in and say 'this and that is going on with my business and these are my insights on what the selling environment is like'.

Marc, do you guys ever send an email to survey your membership to find out what's happening? For there to be so many signed up with Salehoo, SURELY at least 10% are making a success of the information they have learned here (?).

There should be some extensive data from the many thousands who have been involved with Salehoo over the years and HAVE done (and are continuing to do) something profitable with their companies.

Even if some of them have gone back to regular day jobs, I'd like to know that as well so we can have our eyes wide open and be realistic on what has been achieved by others who have gone before us.

A survey would be good in that no one would feel like we are prying into their personal financial details or into their suppliers - everything would be anonymous.

There are plenty of free survey services that could be used to find out where everyone is in their business.

If this has already been done, I would really like to see the results listed here on the website. If it has NOT been done, I would really appreciate the opportunity to submit possible questions to be asked in the survey as I'm sure other serious members would like that opportunity as well.

I know that on different places on the Salehoo website you can see success stories and sometimes a person is featured to tell about their current business but how old is that information? What's happening with those individuals NOW?

How have they changed their business model - or are then even still in business? The success stories don't go in depth enough to tell how long it took that person to begin to earn a profit, how long before they quit their day job (IF they did in fact quit), were they solely Ebay sellers, what was their sourcing model(liquidation,dropship, etc), etc. etc. In depth questions like these could be answered anonymously in a survey format.

This information would be wonderful to have once a year, posted somewhere on the website where we can review it whenever we like.

Us newcomers CONSTANTLY need encouragement that this online selling venture IS possible!


Help!

Roni

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fudjj
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13 Mar 12 09:09:47 pm
Hi Roni,

I'm not aware that any survey of this type has ever been done before To be honest, while it's an interesting idea, I doubt the effectiveness of doing it.

You're absolutely correct in your assessment of the data that could be generated if members participated, however the vest majority of Salehoo members don't even participate on the forum.

It's a combination of things, some are a little shy, others are more security minded in protecting their sources and so on. So while the forum is well read by most, it's only a relatively small participation rate.

That said, our forum is still one of the most lively ones out of all the trading forums. There are some sites where there are very few signs of a pulse at all, so while we encourage all of our members to participate on the forum, it's just not for everyone.

Here is where I think the issue would be with the survey, with most just not really being all that concerned about it at all.

You will find members posting trading information here on the forum from time to time, some saying business is slow, others saying sales are growing.

Succeeding in e-commerce is a very individual thing. Just because 20 members are making money with sold sales growth, doesn't mean anything without being able to break down their individual data to see what, when and how, and of course that's the information that most sellers will protect as it is putting the cash in their pocket.

The point I am trying to make is a survey that only provides general data is pretty much useless, because there is no way to qualify why the data is as it is. Just knowing that 50 people are no longer in business or are doing well doesn't tell you why, and therefore can't be of any real assistance.

The way we do things is, particularly focusing on areas of concern from members, and then using our advice here on the forum to provide a learning tool for all, and I think that is always far more effective than any general survey could ever be.

Now that's just my opinion of course, but I don't make the rules lol, so if it's something you do feel strongly about, then it's something you should definitely suggest that is incorporated for Admin to take a good look at.

Personally, I'll give you a quick run down on my current trading, although I doubt that will serve you or any other member very well at all lol.

Video Games market in Australia, this was shelved a few months back due to the effort out weighing the returns. Very, very flat and the market has rapidly decreasing margins across the board, in regards to eBay trading at least.

I have a business partner in the UK that deals in audio/visual cables and accessories. His market is remaining strong in this, the early part of the trading year, where as last year he was well and truly in a post Christmas slump at this time, so all data points to that being a growing market at the moment.

Doing the cables here in Australia has been something we have been looking at for some time, just too much on both of our plates to make it happen. With the current sales flow he is experiencing in the UK, we are now forging ahead in developing that model for the Australian eBay market, and are quite confident that we will be able to make a dent on arrival.

That is essentially the limitation of my e-commerce ventures at the moment. Most of my work is of the more traditional old economy, offline trading.

I run a video marketing business, specialising in videoing properties for sale for their vendor's marketing purposes. This market is very slow and getting slower, as the estate market here in Australia is far from healthy and getting cash from sellers is harder that pulling teeth from Chickens at the moment!

I am also involved in a small catering business, which is performing quite well all in all.

The last venture, and the newest one of all, is establishing a brokerage for US automotive and Marine here in Australia, as well as worldwide. So we will be exporting/importing from the US into Australia and pretty much anywhere else we have a customer wanting something essentially.

So, let me take this opportunity to give it a plug for any members outside of the US that are interested in a US car, bike, boat or RV, pretty much anything that has an engine.

If you are in the market or knows someone that is, just drop me a PM, please don't list your questions here and take this thread off topic!

Interestingly enough, this is actually something I have teamed up with an actual Salehoo member in the US with to pull together. Now that information won't help at all in the day to day world of eBay selling, however it hopefully highlights the benefits of thinking outside the box at times and using the fantastic resource that our form and membership provides to network with other members and create opportunities.


Mark (fudjj)

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roni3d1
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13 Mar 12 10:30:13 pm
Marc,
that was awesome! By the way, AREN'T you the man (the main admin person?).

That's what I'm talkin' 'bout - Salehoo members who have already walked through the murky waters of ecommerce and can shed light on how they have made (or are in the process of making) it all come together.

I'm starting to learn more about offline selling as well. I believe, as you have stated, there is a creative way of incorporating both online and offline for whatever market a person is targeting - you just have to 'trial and error it' or try a few different markets to make it work.

I think one of the things that newbies don't realize is the work, dedication, 'one step forward, two steps back' kind of world that online (and offline) selling consists of.

I had high hopes, 'pie in the sky' kind of thinking as well but it is quickly turning into a more level headed, realistic view as I read posts and do other researching about building a business.

I still think the survey would be a good idea. (so who DO I contact?)

Just the little bit you shared about YOUR endeavors lifted my spirits. We newcomers need to see that you 'old timers' are doing what WE want to do but it's not just an easy plunk down a couple of hundred dollars (or find a few dropshippers) and POW we're done.

So - anybody else who's been at this for a while willing to give an update on their business? You don't have to to tell how much you're making specifically (unless you want :)) , you don't even have to tell what markets you are in. Just some general stuff like:
When did you first seriously start working online?
Do you do offline marketing?
Do you do offline sales?
Do you still work a day job (Marc, do you have a regular 9 to 5?)
If not, how long before you quit your day job?
Is it just yourself or like Marc, have you partnered up with someone else?
Do you offer services or sell products or both?
If products, how do you source them?(dropship,liquidation,wholesale,garage sale, etc)
Do you make more than $500 USD (318 GBP, 474 AUD) a month in profit?
Do you make more than $1000 USD (637 GBP, 948 AUD) a month in profit?
What are 3 things that you wish you had known about starting a business?

I'm sure there's other stuff to ask; please add on as thoughts come to you!

Roni

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fudjj
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13 Mar 12 11:15:21 pm
Couldn't have thought of a better word to describe myself Roni, that's the awesome word btw, not the old timer lol. I hear that term and I feel like I should be panning for gold in some far aways hills over yonder thar like :)

To answer your first question, no I'm not part of the administrative team. I'm the Forum Community Manager, I'm the one that people grumble to when they have a problem on the forum lol

There's a large team that keeps Salehoo rolling along behind the scenes, never seen, well at not seen that much on the forum, but all working hard to provide the level of service we do : )

To pick up on some of your points;

Learning about business in general is a great asset for for anyone to have, all of the basic rules apply whether it's offline or online business you are involved in. The moer skilled you are in business, the better your chances of success overall.

You're absolutely correct when you say that most newbies don't understand the daily grind that it does take to get yourself established. There is so much garbage written on the net about how easy it is to make a small fortune by selling online, so of course there are many that buy into the whole load of smelly ........

Can you make money online?, absolutely. Is it easy?, absolutely not!

If I had a dollar for every new member that has complained to me about it being so much harder than they thought, I'd be doing pretty well out of it lol

Salehoo is online selling 101, we pride ourselves on not just simply telling people what they want to hear, as many others do. We try to open their eyes and provide them with the tools they need to combat what they see when they do open them, in many cases for the very first time!

You mention the term dedication, and it's a good term to use. It pretty much sums every thing up. No matter what aspect of the business it is, dedication is what it's all about. Learning, building, failing, it's all apart of business in general, but the dedication is what makes you ultimately succeed in any business!

I first started selling online years back lol, hard to remember exactly when. I started doing second hand gear that I would find around, just as a hobby at the start. I come from background in b2b sales and marketing, so selling online was a way I saw as just opening up some new avenues, although I didn't grasp the amount of opportunities it actually presented back then.

I do still work, pretty much every day, but not so much 9-5 stuff. I'm more of a 5am to 6 or 7pm, with a quick summary later in the evening to ensure I covered everything I needed to that day lol. OK, sounds worse than it is, my hours are flexible to a degree, where one venture will need a lot of attention one day, the next will be just keeping an eye on the general flow of all, and every now and then I just say "stuff it, I'm going fishing" and then I pick up where I left off when I get back lol

Dedication is key, but the more it feels like work, the harder it is to do. That's something I have always lived my life by, if I'm not enjoying it, I don't do it lol!

I think that is why most give up, all full of beans to start with but when the daily grind hits in getting well established, the fun stops and instead of taking a step back and clearing the head, they just clear the desk and then burn it!

Not everyone is cut out for business, and that goes for online business especially. The trick is to understand yourself. to know what you are capable of and what you aren't. These types of lessons that can take quite a while to lean about ourselves, but they are lessons well worth learning charting your way through developing a business!

I'll pass on your survey idea to admin for you and I'll return their feedback. That said, I still think it won't prove to be any real value, for example:

Do you do offline marketing?

Now if I say yes or no, what purpose can that possibly serve, other than to create new questions. For example, if the answer is yes, then the obvious question is what type or if I answer no, then the obvious question is why not?

I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say, general data, such as would be gathered by a survey of this nature will never provide any real answers, it will just create more in the best case, and can do damage in the worst case.

Do damage?

Think of a new member with zero experience reading a survey that indicates 50% of people gave up. Now without knowing why they gave up, how hard did they try and all the other questions that surround that, they may very well base a decision to give up themselves.

General data is dangerous data, no smart business would ever use general data to base any decision on. They would break the data down, only then would you get a clear picture as to what it all means, and if there are no means to break it down, it would go in the bin.

OK lol, we'll agree to disagree on this one :)


Mark (fudjj)

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richelle_salehoo
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14 Mar 12 01:43:57 am
Hi roni3d1,

Great idea! I guess we're all busily doing our small part to help make SaleHoo work for everyone :)

I've also shared the thread to Alice our copywriter, as I think she might be able to come up with something creative to hopefully realize your idea!

Cheers


Richelle

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roni3d1
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14 Mar 12 06:36:48 am
Thanks Richelle, I look forward to what Alice comes up with!

Marc,
No, I think I'm thinking along the same lines as you are - possibly.

It will take someone who knows how to both ask the pertinent questions and then how to compile the data after the survey has been completed to pull out the real usefulness of a tool like this.

For example, say there IS a question on the survey that asks "do you consistently make a profit of over $500 a month". Let's say only 30% of the people who take the survey consistently make over $500 a month in profit and of those 30%, ALL of them say they do offline marketing (maybe not offline selling but they advertise in other ways than on the internet) - wouldn't that be a possible clue to their success?

You are right though - one question does lead to another, lol! I guess it would be back to the forums then to see if anyone can shed further light on the details.

But again, It will take someone who knows how to handle surveys to pull out the real gems of what separates the successful from the not so successful.

Maybe it will help and maybe not. As you mentioned before, many members read the forum but don't want to or don't see a need to participate. It may be the same with a survey. Too bad if so.

Let's see what Alice comes up with.

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fudjj
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14 Mar 12 08:25:20 am
"For example, say there IS a question on the survey that asks "do you consistently make a profit of over $500 a month". Let's say only 30% of the people who take the survey consistently make over $500 a month in profit and of those 30%, ALL of them say they do offline marketing (maybe not offline selling but they advertise in other ways than on the internet) - wouldn't that be a possible clue to their success?"

The results you would get from those two questions would be what is called anecdotal data or evidence. It's evidence, but it's very superficial evidence and evidence that would need a big conclusion drawn on it if no further was available in support of it.

For example, just because they do offline marketing, you need to know what type. You need to know if that offline marketing is actually working at all or is some other form of marketing generating the results and so on.

Anecdotal data is the first layer, and the problem with drawing a conclusion based on that data alone is that you don't know how many layers of data lay under that. The more broken down layers, the deeper the data, then the bigger the conclusion is that you have to draw.

Think of it as a court of law, anecdotal evidence in a court room is usually called circumstantial, that is evidence that essentially frames a case, however it draws for a conclusion that is based on some basic facts. People will usually get off on a case that is all circumstantial, as judges and jury's don't like drawing large conclusions, so the Prosecutor has to join as many dots as possible, drawing them a road map, so the only conclusion they can make is the one the Prosecutor wants.

That's what you need to do with anecdotal data, you have to strip away as many layers as possible, breaking the data down to a point where you know exactly what it means. The closer you get to that point, the smaller the conclusion you have to draw, and the higher the chances of that conclusion being spot on!

So how do you get to that point?

Detailed surveys, the word is detailed. Without detailed surveys, you can't break the data down, which leaves you trying to make a 3 point shot from down town with your eyes completely closed or in other words, draw a large conclusion!

How do you get a detailed survey?

Well this is the problem, you need to create a survey that does bite down hard on the topics, and then you have to hope that people feel comfortable enough to fill it out. Of course you can't just rely on the results of 12 surveys, no matter how detailed they are, that's simply not a big enough sample to qualify as representative data.

That all said, you are now placing your trust in the fact that people will be 100% honest in their answers or your data is worthless. Now I'm not saying that our members aren't trustworthy, but I wouldn't lend them any money lol (joke)

People can work very hard to research their business and they may not feel that happy about just sharing all that hard work in a survey, that's all I am saying :)

A detailed survey, great idea, implementing it where you could guarantee the results were sound, now that's the hard part, and if you can't guarantee the results, then you have to ask the question "why try?"

OK, so I'm not that keen on surveys lol, most people should be getting that idea by now, but in my defence. My background is sales and marketing, specialising in marketing for the later part of that. I've read a stack of surveys over the years and I din't trust one of them.

Why?

Simply because almost every single one was based on anecdotal data, and you can slant that type of survey anyway you want, and they usually do lol!

I trust one source of data myself, and that's the data I gather through my own charting!


Mark (fudjj)

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roni3d1
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14 Mar 12 08:33:29 pm
Yes, I see what you are saying.

Well, I guess it's each to his own endeavors/testing; oh well. Thanks for the valuable input.
I look forward to reading more of your marketing know how - I DEFINITIVELY need all the help I can get in that area, lol!

Roni

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fudjj
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14 Mar 12 10:11:24 pm
Absolutely no doubt, the best data you will ever get is that you chart yourself, and the longer you're in business, the more data you have to help steer you in the right direction.

Anecdotal data is fine, just treat it for what it is :)


Mark (fudjj)

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alice-salehoo
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16 Mar 12 03:51:16 am
Hi there,

Interesting thread! I'm afraid I haven't had a chance to read it completely (boy you can waffle, Marc!), but here are some notes from me:

I would also love to see more of our 'senior' members on here posting regularly. I have the lucky position of being in regular contact with 'SaleHoo Success Stories' and keeping up with how their businesses are going.

It's a part of my job that I really love and it always makes my day when I get to hear from a member who is doing well and enjoying the fruits of their business.

Many of them are at a level now where there is little that I can offer them in terms of advice, but it's nice to stay in touch.

Just the other day, I got in touch with Amelia who owns Link hidden: Login to view and I gave her some advice on her search engine optimization. She's paying an agency to do the work for her, but I noticed that a few things could improve, so I flicked her an email and told her to speak with her agency. It looks like the necessary changes have been made now, so I'm glad I could help her out.

I've also got a handful of SaleHoo members on my personal LinkedIn account who I like to stay connected with.

I do sometimes ask these members to be more active on SaleHoo and contribute to the forum, but unfortunately, many of them are just super busy running their businesses.

Anyway, as I touched on, though, for many of successful sellers who you could potentially learn from, SaleHoo has gone from a pot of gold of knowledge, to being a service that isn't as useful for them now: They know all the tricks of the trade for selling on eBay/other online markets, they have relationships with suppliers and they now have the experience behind them to make decisions themselves when they are faced with a dilemma.

So, there just isn't as much need for them to come here to the forum (other than to help out other sellers who are starting out, but it's not easy to find the time to do that).

Many of them renew their SaleHoo membership each year just to stay in touch with us which is nice :)

As Marc mentioned, many successful sellers don't dish the details of how their business operates. They worry that others will enter into the same market as them and compete with them.

I completely understand their position on this. I myself, don't let fear of people entering my market worry me.

I sell baby and infant clothing and I often tell newcomers that it's a great market and I suggest that they get into it!

As for your comments about a survey, I have to agree with comments made by Marc: I don't see how a few statistics would help you.

A couple of years ago, I implemented the SaleHoo Seller Spotlight where each month (or at least most months since we started it) we interview a seller - whether they are old, new, successful, not - and shared their answers via the blog.

Have you seen these posts? They are different from our success stories you mentioned.

If you like, just Google "SaleHoo Seller Spotlight" and the posts will come up.

I like some of the questions you proposed and I might start using them in future posts.

How would you like to feature as a seller on our Spotlight post? Email me at alice@salehoo.com for some details.

These profiles don't go into the level of detail that you are asking for, but we have done many surveys in the past and find that response rates are low, especially if you ask too many complicated questions.

Anyway, I'm happy to answer the questions you outlined above:

**When did you first seriously start working online?

2006/2007 while in college. I started drop shipping high ticket items from a US supplier to my buyers here in NZ.

**Do you do offline marketing?

Yes, but not for my online retail stuff, for another web-based company I own. I am a member of a business networking group here in Christchurch, NZ. The group is called BNI or Business Networking International. They operate all over the world. I recommend checking them out. It wouldn't be *super* helpful for an online retailer but there are a lot of fringe benefits of being a member.

**Do you do offline sales?

Yes

**Do you still work a day job (Marc, do you have a regular 9 to 5?)
If not, how long before you quit your day job?

Yes I do, though I do find it difficult to juggle all the projects I am involved with (online selling/web-based companies) but I like working here too much to change anything at the moment.

Sometimes I take a day off from my slightly crazy life on the weekends by just doing nothing, but then I just get bored.

**Is it just yourself or like Marc, have you partnered up with someone else?

Have tried this, it didn't work out.

**Do you offer services or sell products or both?

Both. I sell baby and infant items mostly but also own 50% of a services based company that has local and international clients.

**If products, how do you source them?

Wholesalers.

**Do you make more than $500 USD (318 GBP, 474 AUD) a month in profit?

Yes

**Do you make more than $1000 USD (637 GBP, 948 AUD) a month in profit?

Yes

**What are 3 things that you wish you had known about starting a business?

1. Everything takes twice as much time and twice as much money than you think it will

2. Business and friendships don't mix. I personally would not recommend going into a business with a friend and wish I had have known this around 18 months as a failed partnership cost me around $12k - but that's a whole other thread!

I'm sure they work for plenty of people out there, but if you are looking at getting into this, I suggest you set expectations in stone before you get started. Also list who is responsible for making what decisions - someone needs to be able to make a call - otherwise nothing will get done.

3. It's very difficult - but not impossible - to make a lot of money.

My best advice to anyone who wants to start up any business, regardless of whether it's an eBay business, a law firm or a mechanical work shop would be to work your ass off.

That's all you need to do :)


Alice

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Wholesale Directory by SaleHoo
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fudjj
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16 Mar 12 03:58:30 am
At this point I won't continue to waffle any further!


Mark (fudjj)

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16 Mar 12 07:18:03 am
Haha, I kind of out-waffled you there, didn't I?


Alice

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16 Mar 12 11:53:28 am
Holly @#$% alice, you kiwi girls sure can waffle.

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roni3d1
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17 Mar 12 05:29:25 am
Hey Alice,

Thanks for your input!

Just hearing from someone, right now, this day, who's doing their business and making a success of it at OVER $1000 a month profit is inspiring.

I can understand what you are saying about the older members - I guess there really isn't a lot of need to 'hang out' here once you know the ropes.

I love (and hate) the '3 things you wish you had known about starting a business'. I'm already finding them to be all too true.

As for your question "How would you like to feature as a seller on our Spotlight post?" Um, don't you have to be 'SELLING' something to be considered a seller, lol! Unfortunatley, I still haven't started selling yet - but I'm getting close!

Roni

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fm1234
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20 Mar 12 09:49:40 pm

Us newcomers CONSTANTLY need encouragement that this online selling venture IS possible!


Now, I know there are many much more friendly people than myself here, but if it isn't encouraging that there are people who are selling online successfully hanging out, answering questions and giving tips on suppliers, selling tactics etc (which largely get ignored, if the answer isn't what the asker had in mind) then I don't know what is.

I am not on Salehoo staff, in no way am compensated for my presence here, and was already doing six figure annual sales before Salehoo existed. Yet I still find the forum to provide value and insights relevant to my ongoing efforts, and do try to bring some value to threads that touch on stuff with which I have experience.

I crapped all over the thread the last time someone brought up the survey idea, so I'll refrain from it here and just say "not interested." But I will concur with Alice's point about hard work -- most people getting into this or any other venture just have no concept at all about working for oneself. It's hard, it's lonely, it's easy to get distracted from, and no one but you can make you get back in line and work.

Specifically for people looking to sell, the one thing I say again and again on Salehoo is the same thing I'll print here: Stop making decisions on what to sell that are rooted in your (total) ignorance of the wholesale market. Video games, iPads, designer clothes, diamond jewelry etc. All the sexy products you'd love to get half price. Drop those. Scroll back through the forum, and of course you'll notice people do not take that advice as a general rule of thumb. But it's good advice if you want to shave a year of time and a few hundred to a few thousand dollars of your money off of your learning curve.

So: Work hard. Think unsexy thoughts. Ask fewer questions that aren't specifically about suppliers, venues, payment processing etc. because "How much do you make a month?" and other such questions are likely to get ignored.


Frank


"Failure is not when you fall down. Failure is when you don't get back up."

--J.J. Luna
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27 Mar 12 12:11:27 pm
1. Everything takes twice as much time and twice as much money than you think it will


----------

I agree! If not triple!

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